The Sundering of the Community - UB Anet's Double-Edged Sword

[Snow Bunny]

It's Pve.

Who
cares
if
it
is
easy

It always has been, always is, always will be.

This thread is so badly conceived it's truly bewildering.

[Shaz]

ANET does obviously, otherwise they wouldnt have nerfed TNTF and SoL. And those who argue that "if you don't like it, don't use it", that's just a dumb argument. If that were true, there would be no skills balance ever but there are. Pve easy? Yes, but it was never meant to be that mind-numbingly easy with Ursan Blessing.

[Burst Cancel]

A lot of the sentiments in this thread can be summed up in one word: Entitlement.

People who did things the hard way have a tendency (rightfully so, I think), that people who "take the easy way out" are not entitled to the same accomplishments and rewards. You can see this in the GMC textmod thread as well, and you can see it in other game forums. This is, in fact, the main reason why there is so much uproar over exploits, and things like 55ing - they generally greatly reduce the 'bar of entry' for other players, either skill- or effort-wise.

If something used to take skill and/or effort, and suddenly takes no skill or effort for the same reward, people will obviously feel resentment. We saw this effect in the AFK Lightbringer farming fiasco a few months back, which also ostensibly affected no one else. Again, the issue here is entitlement - if someone does it the easier way (and, more importantly, an easier way that was just handed to them, rather than something clever they figured out themselves), it's going to feel like cheating at some level, whether Anet officially considers it cheating or not.

A further issue is that, at some level, balance is needed even in PvE. A game that anyone can 'play' with no effort ceases to be a meaningful game. This is why you can't make great games by catering to the lowest common denominator. An obvious test here would be to consider what would happen to GW if we simply made all monsters in all areas lvl1, and have them all drop great loot all the time - how many people would still be playing a month from now?

One of the reasons why PuG quality is so low is because the game fails to punish poor play. It has become axiomatic that being able to beat the game with a certain build does not in any way support the validity of that build, simply because the game is so easy that it doesn't matter what build you use. You can't build a quality playerbase with such a low difficulty level. Allowing the game to degenerate further into c-space is never a good thing, although many may argue that the playerbase is beyond saving already.

[Clone]

I like Ursan Blesing. Is it overpowered? Sure it is. Does that matter? Absolutely not! The only real problem I see is that it is a big deviation from the "this game is about skill, not time spent" line of the Anet of old. Nothing proves how untrue that is now like the norn blessings. However, while I would like to see less grinding behind the ursan line, the results are... fun! Sadly, I think too many people here have forgotten that a game should be fun. And just an aside to anet... I don't find grinding fun. Keep that in mind for GW2, please!

Getting kicked for not having it maxed? What can I say, a huge part of the community sucks, and such a practice is hardly new. People get kicked out of PvP groups for not having whatever rank. People get kicked out of PvE groups for not being part of the holy trinity. ...man I miss playing as my mesmer.... but I digress. They didn't change the game for all of those, Ursan should be no different.

[snikerz]

Originally Posted by Shaz

ANET does obviously, otherwise they wouldnt have nerfed TNTF and SoL. And those who argue that "if you don't like it, don't use it", that's just a dumb argument. If that were true, there would be no skills balance ever but there are. Pve easy? Yes, but it was never meant to be that mind-numbingly easy with Ursan Blessing.

they nerfed these skills because ppl like the OP were persistant in making threads like this over and over and over, good thing its 60/40 to us.

And yea as somebody said, UB gives some professions like Mesmers & Sins to feel what its like to leeroy.

cmon think about this:

[Shaz]

Originally Posted by snikerz

they nerfed these skills because ppl like the OP were persistant in making threads like this over and over and over, good thing its 60/40 to us.

And ANET did it rightfully so. Those skill were overpowered, though TNTF is still really good. If anything that's imbalanced or overused, I don't mind it getting tweak(or most would say nerf). Keeping the game fresh is never a bad thing.

Originally Posted by snikerz

And yea as somebody said, UB gives some professions like Mesmers & Sins to feel what its like to leeroy.

Well, Sins and Mesmers aren't meant to leeroy.

[Fitz Rinley]

Burst Cancel,

You state things well. And I agree, people seem to be absolutely enraged at the idea that someone else might get it better or easier than they did. I saw this same thing in court as a juror. A young man lost his shot at the Olympics due to a car accident. He was not asking for his life to be taken care of, just for the insurance of the causing vehicle to pay the medical expenses and his lost income over the two years of treatment since the accident. The response of most of the jury was exactly the same as these players: No one took care of me when X happend why should he get anything? Nothing made it easy for me when I did it why should anyone else get a break? I do not understand this exceedingly selfish position. One ought to be glad that others do not have to suffer through the bad stuff, instead of insisting on it.

The question is not whether or not something used to/should require skill or effort, and your slippery slope of "if they make it any easier they might as well just make all mosnters 1st level with cake drops all the time" does not follow. No one, including myself, is interested in exploits as the primary function of the game. There will always be someone willing to take advantage of an exploit because they can, and do not have the moral fortitude not to do so. These exploits are almost always nerfed by ANet, and in my oppinion usually in the simplest most convenient way for them with little regard for player goals and aspirations. They have never been wise enough when taking toys away from us, to give us something Equitable back. Because the fact is, when a group of people are using an exploit, botting, or something else to overcome tedium then there is something wrong with the game design that makes the exploit preferable.

What the game fails in mostly is in preventing undeveloped play. It is a problem, as follows:

I enjoy watching runners run. (Can't afford it, or I would pay to be part of groups being run, just to watch the Pin actively trying to avoid 500 zillion angry bowling balls - in essence the sport of running.)

I very seldom run, and only friends or guildies. I am not all that great at it, and usually take along a few skills to beat up a thing or two I expect in my way (this pin stings back). But then I only do it for free, and I do it with people that know how to play - have been playing a couple years. Why? Because new players dumped into Droks armor at level 1-3 and then begining the long trek of missions out of Ascalon don't get the timing they need from the practice against lower level skills and weapons versus max armor.

Simply put, a part of the reason PUG quality is low is because training in 60-80 AL against foes using skills and weapons designed challenge at 15 to 40 AL means you are playing with the equal of a permanent Liches Aura (at no cost). A more solid structure for the game would have been to have AL be intrinsic to character level and area + mode of play. Hence, if a character did power level to 20, then armor adjusted to max for the area would still leave them with AL 15-30 in Ascalon - even if they did have more health than they should. Then instead of buying armors, one would be unlocking skin-icons in order to switch on and off for appearances and to change prefices and suffices for mode of play.

I will defend the option of persons who have been playing for months and years to run to places so they can jump into the image that best entertains them, acquire skills for builds they already know to use, etc. But it is when the NUGs do this and then get poor developmental training because of it that game skill level in the population goes down. This was the reason we asked for so many blocks against open areas access with the creation of Factions.

Any player that stays with the game long enough will develop a style of play that works for them. What is most amusing is the assumption that their style of play works for all. Recently, doing Aura Glade to help a friend go back and pick up bonus, we decide to PUG. The monk who joined insisted that we were going to lose everything because the WaMos were rushing. My neighbors and I have been playing for two years, he was running crystal as a ranger, his wife was monking, and I was MM. One of the tanks ignored instructions and lost us the bonus by placing the third crystal. The monk then insisted we were all losers because he was so experienced and that everything had to be done his way. We all mapped back to Aurora Glade, and my neighbors and I loaded heroes and took the mission and bonus with no problem. Right after being berated for noobs by this other monk who wasnt getting his own way all the way through. In his eyes, we were part of this degenerated player base, when in fact as soon as he and the wammos were no longer there - we sailed through without a hitch. But this does not mean he was not experience, or that he had any problems after we were separated - only that we played differently, and more patiently with others, than did he.

Edit: Frankly I do not find Ursan Blessing to be all that great. It is a pain in the arse to maintain. I read you could do Magni with it, attempted it with my monk - since the tournament is not designed for healers to have chance, and then quit bothering with it. It has no use for me outside of Blood washes Blood.

[zamial]

see above.

what was left out:

The casual gamer has been and is going to be catered too. the ursan blessing fills this roll.

[Kerwyn Nasilan]

There are no ELite areas anymore. With the sheer number of SKills to choose from Diffecuty only exists till someone finds that one build. With Ursanway Mesmers/Assassins/whtever can acually find groups in Elite areas without going with guildies/people who relize mesmer dominated alot of areas in the deep (:P). It just made the easyness that some professions have to all of them. I have loved Ursan ever since I killed all those charr with it. TO be fully Honest it is the only reason i raised my norn rank

[Harmless]

Just curious, how many of you complaining that pugs will "demand people have UB", actually play with pugs a lot?

I also wonder how many complaining about UB use consumables? If you are wanting pure skill, talent and builds....where do consumables come in? They come in to make it easier and quicker.

The big difference is gold, consumables cost you and therefore are limited to those that can afford them.

Myself, I see absolutely no difference in the two.

[Biostem]

I have to be honest - I have prophecies, factions, and nightfall, and play w/ PUGs pretty frequently - I have yet to encounter UB even once.

[AceeBlueEagle]

meh...

People like to biatch and create strife on this board and others. It's human nature. There will always be something to biatch about.

Like others have stated, it's a PVE only skill. Get on with your life. GWars is not the be all / end all in your life. Go to the gym and work off some teenage angst.

[Medic]

People who have nothing better to do then whine abt a PVE skill are pathetic. if Ursan was a PvP skill then yes, it would be a HUGE problem, but its not. Its PvE only. Whining loser idiots are going to get this skill nerfed just like Seed of Life and There's Nothing to Fear. Honestly I hope everyone who has a problem with Ursan or any other PvE skill RQ's guild wars. I wont miss you, and please, dont buy GW2 either.
/signed to save the bear

[Lord Feathers]

Good god this will kill the game eh ? What was it last week and the month before that ? This doom threads really are a whine. Let's see

1.) Night Fall - the addition of heroes ( OMG we'll never be able to PUG ever again )

2.) Various skill balances / nerfs ( OMG we'll never be able to play HA after this ever )

Do I even need to go on ?

[garethporlest18]

I haven't seen UB anywhere in any pugs at all. If it makes things really that easy then why aren't people using it?

[trobinson97]

Originally Posted by Biostem

I have to be honest - I have prophecies, factions, and nightfall, and play w/ PUGs pretty frequently - I have yet to encounter UB even once.

I have to agree with y ou. I actually went out looking for Ursan teams and couldn't find them. Last night I went to all the major districts of DoA I could, only 2 had people in it and the whole time only one Dervish was looking for a UB team. He left when he saw no one was interested. Those who say that in the future UB will be all people will play are just trying to use that argument so that they can get the skill nerfed. What comes off as a crusader mentality in that they are doing it for the "good" of the community is no more than a farce for just getting it nerfed so people can't do the areas they do without having to jump through all the hoops.

More than a fear of UB becoming the way to play PvE I am more worried about a select few who feel they are entitled to something trying to deny the majority the choice of builds they want to play. That's what will ruin the game in my opinion. On one side you have a relatively small amount of the player base dictating how others should play, anyway you slice it, it's not right.

For the people who say that the use it/don't use it aregument is stupid, it's not that's it's stupid, it's that it makes so much sense it frustrates you because you really can't think of a decent counterpoint. If you want to base your pve experience around using skill then go for it, but that doesnt give you the right to try and make other people play the same way. It has been said over and over ad nauseum, if you don't like it, don't use it. I am defending your player choice as well.

This is PvE folks, it's a game that is there with the sole purpose of having fun. The vision of PvE is not the same as it was when GW was first released, it has evolved (no doubt some would say devolved but that's another issue) and become what the majority of PvErs wanted. To facilitate the needs of the majority, anet has supplied them with over powered consumables, over powered skills, and overpowered passive effects. You might as well get used to it, because this will be a BIG part of GW2.

What build or consumable I use in my own PvE instance is no concern to anyone, as long as I am doing it within the rules of the ToS. Nothing anyone will do with UB has a legitimate negative effect on another player in another group/instance (entitlement issues do not count, everyon paid for their game just like you).

I really hope anet is reading this thread, don't make the wrong decision. Where will it end?

Edit: Oh yeah, for all the crusaders who want balance for the community, there's a whole other feature of the game called PvP.

[Ciladis]

As in my OP I stated that the GW community has been sundered by this skill.

I am all for people having fun playing and I’m certainly for the forgotten professions to be able to play certain areas they were shunned from. It’s also great that it encourages the casual players to play. These are all big positives.

However, let as imagine a situation that just before GW was realised they decided to include PvE skills and UB:-

Serious Gamer: Great GW’s is going to be coming out soon I’ll have all these great professions and skill bars I can create and enjoy. I’m so looking forward to this!

PC Magazine Reviewer: GW fantastically designed plenty of skills/professions to challenge people and create a long interest in the game. However, they seemed to have employed a 12 year old who has come up with the UB skill. And for some reason the quality control guy must have been on WoW’s payroll to pass it. People don’t need to come up with great builds or ideas all the need to do is play is this one skill and they can steamroll everything. One of the most moronic descisions in MMORPG history. Game rating - 50%

12 year old reads review: Great I can just get this one skill and PWN everything!

Serious Gamer doesn’t read review: OMG what’s this everyone is running about with the same build and bins the game.

Would the game last as long as it has? No way. What type of game would it be now if UB was in it at the start?

I wouldn’t like to see UB be turned into a Teddy Bear but nor would I like to see it become a great Grizzly Bear rampaging through the whole game.

It will be interesting to see what Anet’s response for this problem is going to be. If nothing what does it say to their attitude to the serious and to the casual gamers? What does it say about what kind of game GW2 is going to be?

[trobinson97]

Why would we try to combat your hypothetical argument when we have reality? Reality is, UB isn't "taking over" anything. It's just the latest doom and gloom GW theory propagated by people who would rather you play as they do. It has no effect on anyone outside of the person/group using it.

[Bryant Again]

Paragons are probably the most powerful class for PvE as it stands right now. So why isn't everyone a Para?

[arcanemacabre]

I'm not running UB. In fact, never touched the skill except for that one mission where you need to break through barricades with it. So I guess I am one person in the game you don't have to worry about. Oh yeah, my wife doesn't use it either. That's two. I guess that proves that not "everyone" is running around with it.

Hey, 55 monks have been dominating certain areas of the game -solo-. Hell there are many builds that can solo areas of the game. Personally, that's a much bigger problem than a skill that causes a full team of people using it to be "uber."